UK coalition debate
The following is a transcript of a conversation on a forum to which I belong. The debate is about the UK coalition government.
I have posted this because it reminded me that there are ordinary people who have an understanding of general politics. It reminds me that this is a minimum level of debate. This is not a conversation between politicians, or people with a commercial understanding of politics. These are normal people, with ordinary interests, but an understanding of how politics affects their daily lives.
I am not holding this up as a high level of political conversation, I am holding it up as the expected level of political conversation from everyday people.
We should all have a political opinion, we should all express our political opinion.
We should all strive to understand fundamental policies that drive the country within which we live and have an informed opinion.
How informed is your political opinion? If you needed to vote, would you have all the facts or would you rely of the last sound bite you heard on tabloid tv?
Coalition
I remember how small Ukip was when I was in Britain. now its over taken the Dems?
Out of the three existing evil doers, Brits need to give a chance to one that has not been tried.
Koolar
—-
Mate, Labour is reaping the rewards for its mass immigration policy. Labour are getting more and more votes from grateful immigrants.
look at Obama’s last Election, full of immigrants living in fear of what Mitt Romney would do to them. its the same in the UK, as more and
more Brits move away from Labour to other parties such as UKIP it might change even further. the relentless tide of immigrants arriving
and ensuring they stay by voting Labour is negating the turn away from Labour by more and more Brits.
So yes, Labour are gaining votes along with UKip. UKip was always going to take votes off the Lib dems, you’d have to be an idiot not to
see this was going to happen.
That’s the second Bloody nose for Cameron in just a few weeks. now he is giving us more ammunition by ‘Trying’ to squirm out of his
promises on the Leveson enquiry. giving us more proof that he is, and always was, in the pocket of ‘Murdoch and his gang of press Barons.
maybe its good news for Britain, all that UKIP need to do to get in at the next election is to promise the referendum and then have other
policies defined. they cannot be perceived as a single issue party.
Apollo
—–
All this goes to show, unchecked immigration controls and poorly policed borders will affect all of us economically in the short term and have devastating effects in the long term, and right here is the secret, but it comes in the reverse. It has absolutely nothing to do with ‘unchecked immigration’ being the cause of a runaway economy, but rather an ‘unchecked economy’ being hidden behind immigration.
No politician is going to stand up and say, ‘I got it wrong. The GDP of this country is in a terrible state because of bad decisions I made.’ Rather you’re more likely to hear, ‘Immigrants are taking away your jobs.’ As if the so called ‘immigrants’ administer themselves into the country. But if you think things are bad now, they would have been a whole heap worse if there were no immigrants, as nothing would get done!
Too much government, too much inflation, too much austerity, and too much spending by government on absolute rubbish, which in turn incurs greater tax burden on companies and the general public, is the problem. These additional tax deficits/burdens on companies in terms of property tax, income tax, estate tax, payroll tax, means that, overall, there is less profit for companies to pay out to both their shareholders in bond/dividend payments, and workers in wages. Job numbers and wages are cut, so as to keep the company in business, as a result. And the only people willing to work the longer hours for less pay, are the immigrants!
Only government is in charge of providing a playing field conducive for flourishing business, it’s called capitalism. But instead we have sudo-capitalism playing out as bottom-up socialism, where the impoverished bail the rich and wealthy out of the shit they got themselves into, by paying their debts!!!
Beya
—–
Capitalism is a pyramid type economy , it only works when the ones at the bottom move up and the ones at the top move off . It’s that flow that keeps it working. Problem is the people at the top are still there and there is no one coming in at the bottom. The cause is greed , greed generates the need for cheap labour ,the cheap labour comes from immigration. Immigration is not the reason why, it is one of the side effects , but regardless of the role it plays it needs to be checked when we have a social system that bests people who don’t work over those that do. They are looking at costs left right and centre. Paying someone who is not working, who has entered illegally is a cost us tax payers ( it us who foots bill ultimately) cannot really afford in this current economic situation. But they are only one group , they are many others. A lot of what is going on does not make sense , like you say no one is going to put their hand up , but the situation still needs to be resolved.
Austerity is needed when you have not got any cash flow and you have no gold and have no control over you utilities and you rely solely on exports. This country is nicked named “ treasure isle “ , due to all the pirates of the systems that are in place. Why do you think they are people lining up at the docs risking life and limb to get here. Once in, it’s hard to get kicked out …… look no further at Abul Hamsa ( not sure about the spelling ). He is just high media , but what about all the others you don’t know about , the 4 million and growing who slipped through the net …… there is crisis out there , apart from the sensationalism , it’s real.
Gouki.
—–
Capitalism is a pyramid type economy , it only works when the ones at the bottom move up and the ones at the top move off . It’s that flow that keeps it working. Problem is the people at the top are still there and there is no one coming in at the bottom, Not true at all. The whole premise of capitalism is that an organization lives or dies by the sweat of its brow. As newer, more refined systems of work come into play, older less efficient systems fall by the wayside. And as such the ebb and flow of progress trundles on. When the tree begins to fall, let it fall. Don’t put crutches on it, and then expect society to continue paying for its maintenance when it’s clearly past its shelf life.
If what you’re saying had any validity, at all, there would be no Google’s, no Facebook’s, no Amazon’s, of the world, because the older generations of business such the GE’s, Boeings’s, or Sainbury’s, would still have monopoly on how people purchased their goods. But this clearly is not true.
Austerity is certainly not required when banks, and government, have been stealing money from society. What is required is that the banks pay back the money that they stole from the economy, in the form of ‘black box’ trading etc or tax avoidance, as is the case with Google, Amazon etc etc. How can you possibly impose tax hikes on the ordinary man and woman on the street, when multi-billion $ companies are avoiding tax, and legally!!
Uzo
—-
Don’t confuse entrepreneurism with capitalism, for capitalism to work that has to be the top down structure. If not, all jobs will have the same pay no matter their grade or importance.
As regards the financial society, like I said before no one bites the hands that feeds. The banks and governments are hand in hand. How could they legislate to make sure no bank fails, it as you say we are in a true capitalist state, the banks that failed would have been left to die. Northern Rock would be no more. Look, they are in the same league as de beers , Opec etc etc. Massive. Old money never dies it re-invests. Who do you think bought share in those companies you mentioned. Come on , look hard enough and you will see it’s same people. Look it takes money to make money.
Food for thought , Nectar cards/points ….. all the places you can use them and on line , who own and runs nectar ….Sainsbury’s. That’s why they now own screw direct too. Old money has their fingers in every pie. It’s the same people. Google , Amazon do think in a pricing war the biggest companies could not out price the online only sellers ? Really ? , for them it’s just another avenue. Just because the name on the front of the shop is different does not mean the owners are. Remember how Tottenham court road used to be …. You would go up there and hunt for a really good price for you hi-fi and tech ? It was two people who owned the majority of Tottenham court road shops , they split it up on either side. But check this , what a lot of people never knew , they were both from the same family.
It’s all about perception, you perceive that through capitalism you have a choice , yes you do ………but the money ends up at the same people.
Why do you think , the financial and government and big old school British businesses despise Richard Branson, he managed to buck the system. That’s pure entrepreneurism !
Gouki.
—-
It’s all about perception, you perceive that through capitalism you have a choice , yes you do ………but the money ends up at the same people.
And this is precisely why things remain the same, because those that claim they wish change in their lives continue to think through the prism of those ‘superior winged’ human beings who posses the ability to teleport, whom they beLIEve will never leave.
There’s only one word that has any true meaning in this lifetime, and it’s ‘courage’. Without it, one is merely talking. If one beLIEves that government or any other institution is going to elevate them out of their misery, a wasted life will one experience. If you want it go and get it, just like those winged humans, who always get the money in the end, did.
Beya
—-
Nah,
The reason why things remain the same , has nothing to do with individual courage it has to do with responsibility. Most people would like to go up to the politicians , bankers , etc etc and kick them out. But how do you do that by yourself ….impossible. The last person who tried that in this country was Guy Fawkes , and he was betrayed by almost everybody.
Look people don’t even help each other in general day to day life, how do you expect society to change? To change a system you have to fight it from the inside , problem being by the time you get on the inside you become part of the system. To rebel would cost you and your dependants. Now your trapped in a system like everyone else , you will need likeminded individuals before change can take place. Problem is greed is always the great divider. It’s the one thing that us who work ( yeah the working class ) we have a price , we would like to think that our principles are beyond that , in reality it’s not. When I comes to saving other people at cost of ourselves and dependents …..most people will look after number 1.
Let’s talk about courage, most people I know ( that includes everyone on mail ) have courage , it’s not in short supply , but courage can only take you so far. The real message in life is doing what’s best for yourself and your dependants , sometimes that means being less selfish with your desires , sometimes that means not sacrificing everything for that extra gold coin. Sometimes it means stepping back and seeing what is really important in life. Those things take courage and fortitude. It’s easy to follow the masses ( keeping up with the Joneses ). Society works in levels , it always and it always will. People do go up and down those levels , not everyone as you can fly , sometimes those who can should not.
The government or any institution will not bring you elevate you out of your misery, but especially government are supposed to provide the basic framework for you ( those who want to ) to elevate themselves. No hand outs , but various paths, other than step on thy neighbour.
Gouki.
—-
Most people would like to go up to the politicians , bankers , etc etc and kick them out. But how do you do that by yourself ….impossible.
Those ‘most’ people you speak of, are the very same people voting them in! Einstein was bang on the money when he said,
‘”We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”
Some people simply can’t function beyond the paradigm of master/slave. They need someone else to think for them, to tell them what to eat and drink, what kind of work to have, what kind of aspirations to have, what they can and can’t achieve in life, all the while stewing in their own misery and complaining.
Courage. Without it humanity is doomed
Beya
—
So genius,
How do you not vote for the same people? Vote for the independents ? Name one independent party that has a workable agenda for the country , rather than just about one policy. Don’t vote …..ahhh terrific , give them carte blanche to do what they want. I know what start your own political party. Can be done, who’s going to stump up the cash, who is going to sort the policies to sell to the voting public. You will need people who know the system…guess what , they are the same people who are in power.
People are not just whining because they are lazy or not doing anything , they are whining that despite the fact that they are doing things the current system does not favour them.
You talk about master and slave, if you work for someone or work for yourself , that paradigm still exists. The superiority complex comes when you decide that you are better than anyone because you believe being on the master side of the equation put you in that category , but all you are doing is perpetuating it. It takes two to tango !
For things to change , like you say a new way thinking has to come about , but also as you know that hardest thing is convince people that they are thinking wrongly. Doing it on a mass scale requires something special. That does not mean it can’t be done. Even you can agree that the root of all our problems is money specifically greed. If money was distributed fairly, there would be no need for it. Well will still need , people at all levels doing all jobs ……how do we move towards that ? How do we fairly allocation to all people , not just those who historically were the “ them “ we have been referring to.
Change for change sake is pointless and a futile exercise, change to move forward is something to aim for. My utopia is something along the lines of Star Trek …..what’s yours ?
Gouki.
—
After years of voting for the Tories and Labour, I’m done. UKIP Nigel has my vote for the European elections AND for the GE. I don’t care whether UKIP win any seats and I certainly don’t care whether my protest vote damages the Tories – and I speak as a life-long Conservative voter. Many of the people I speak to have transferred allegiance to UKIP because they are horrified by the lurch to the left under Cameron, the lack of conservative principle, and the total unwillingness to grasp any of the major issues like the mass immigration that is destroying the country I knew. UKIP is the only hope now.
Koolar
—
UKIP aren’t perfect but they are picking up like a storm in the wake of the Lib Dems. we simply have to get out of the EU, we have to get
this enforced immigration problem back under control and we have to stop them in Brussels from succeeding in their plan for a Federal
State of Europe…. UKIP are still amateurs in politicis – but they are not rank crooks like many of the Europhiles. so people will give them a
chance, and let’s not forget the Eurosceptic N. Kinnock who turned his coat in order to get himself and his entire family on the EU
gravy train. UKIP is growing at the expense of the Euro-lacked other three, so many of whose representatives depend on the corrupt EU
for their pay, perks and pensions. Once UKIP get a few more professionals on board their amateurism will vanish and then we will see the new Tories.
Apollo
—
We don’t have to be in the European market to trade with Europe. The sooner we come out of EU rules , the sooner we can get our own house in order. As regards UKIP , it might be just what’s needed. The coalition has given the lib dems more power than they would have ever had. In reality a coalition should have been formed of a working relationship of Labour and the Tories as they had the most votes between them. However that would have meant that they would have to put their differences aside and work for the good of the people and the country. Yeah fat chance of that happening yet , but it could happen in our life time. Coalitions could be a thing of the future as no one party convinces the voters that they have the right answers and is willing to carry them out. We could see a UKIP coalition.
Gouki.
—
Maybe so, and yes you have a good point, but think about small business.
27 countries of the EU make up a huge market of potential customers and suppliers for your business. I know because my company trades in
26 countries. and for me this market can be easier to access than other overseas markets as many of the trading practices, regulations and
standards apply throughout the EU.
As for a standards and EU regulations Gouki, the EU is a huge market in which to sell your goods and services – it also gives you access to
a huge source of suppliers who only work to some EU regulations that we are not apart of. I can see the down sides, but I can also see the
benefits too of a EU single market – the program of freeing up the trade of goods and services and the movement of people between
EU countries for jobs.
But like you said, we can do some of that to a degree, however, its going to become harder and harder to achieve this as Europe becomes
closer together.. but we won’t be apart of that.
Gouki, one thing you have to understand, the EU is not a free market like some people want it to be. why are they happy for us to pay
through the nose for our laws to be made elsewhere by people who do not have our national interest at heart? bottom line Gouki is that
firstly Cameron, Clegg and the rest are not very clever at all. they are schoolboys will little or no real world experience. top bureaucrats
doubtless find that dealing with above to be very much easier than dealing with politicians with real world experience (Hilary Clinton).
and the prospect of a cushy tax free job in Brussels is always in the background if they do not rock the boat.
As for your main point about us not needing to be apart of that, like I said, to an extent your right, whether the Swiss have signed up
in their relationship with EU regs or not, and whether we would need to do the same or not, the Swiss still enjoy the freedom to negotiate
with any other nation or trading bloc. they just don’t get some of the tax benefits which honestly they don’t need. as members of the
EU, that is something which we cannot do, but as former members we would have the same flexibility that the Swiss already have.
it doesn’t need to be perfect!
Apollo
—
But the world market is bigger than the European market , and we don’t need to pay up into that. All we need is internal infrastructure to ease that from within the UK. The internet is one path , but currently UK taxes makes it a more expensive option for smaller businesses. We need Europe as a market place but not in the way it’s being done. We also need to protect the UK companies , the governments are self-serving , making it easy for foreign investments and difficult for the home based operations. Hence those companies and services move out of the country, that does us no good.
That’s why when I say the infrastructure needs to be in place to stimulate this !
Gouki.
—
How do you not vote for the same people?
Even you can figure that one out my friend! 🙂
My utopia is something along the lines of Star Trek …..what’s yours ?
“The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.”, that’s mine.
Uzo
—-
You realise I’m talking about the same people in the back ground who no matter what party gets in they still have power. Please !
Gouki.
—
You realise I’m talking about the same people in the back ground who no matter what party gets in they still have power.
The answer then is simple, sir. Take no active part in the game as it stands! If everybody adopted the same philosophy, that garbage would soon disappear.
The power has always been in the hands of the masses. Unfortunately they’ve been mostly fast asleep.
Beya
—
Council
I have been following this conversation with much interest, and would like to commend you on your level of debate on this topic.
It is this level of conversation that fuels the democracy of politics, no matter what your political view.
I envy your conversation, as my time away from England now precludes my participation.
Most of you are aware I now live in Australia, and am starved of this level of general discourse. Here, politics is truly one of those topic that people will actively avoid, through a general lack of knowledge of the subject, and an unwillingness to be the “tall poppy”.
As a result career politicians here run amuck with sound bites, unanswered questions and unaccountability.
Council, I applauded your willingness to be heard and I defend your right to express political opinion, a right not afforded to many in this world, and squandered by others.
TopCat
Orlando Speaks / Topcat's Blog 